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Home › Blogs › Gordon Glidden's blog › What The Commercials Don’t Tell You About Replacement Windows

What The Commercials Don’t Tell You About Replacement Windows

 

Here in the Detroit area replacement window manufacturers bombard us constantly with enticing deals claiming to save money on our energy bills. We see it on TV, in print and online. "Save up to 50% on your heating and cooling costs by installing our top of the line windows." Wow! Where do I sign up?

But let’s take a step back. Perhaps it is too good to be true. Based on the research I’ve been doing lately in the realm of energy audits, today's top of the line thermal insulated double glazed replacement windows are not much better that yesterday's single pane window with storm windows at keeping the heat in and out. Some of the glass coatings have helped a little, but little is the operative word there. Glass technology has actually not changed much in 2,000 years.

So where do we go from here? First, here’s a short primer on "R-values." The ability of a given material to resist heat transfer from the hot side to the cold side is measured in R-values. The greater the R-value the better insulating qualities that material has. Here in Southeast Michigan, new construction codes say the attic must be insulated to a minimum R-38 (about 12 inches of fiberglass). The walls must be insulated to a minimum R-13 (about 3.5 inches of fiberglass). And the state powers would like to increase those minimums to R-49 and R-19 respectively. Impressive numbers.

Now let's look at window R-values. Replacement windows are rated using their "U-values". Simply put, R-values and U-values are inverse to each other. Replacement window manufacturers say "why use U-values for windows and R-values for about everything else?” Walls are built to stop the outside from coming in while windows are added to allow the outside to come in. Walls stop heat and light - windows pass heat and light. Really simplified - when a person builds a wall they want to know how much of the outside is going to stay outside - and when a person installs a window, they want to know how much of the outside the window is going to allow inside. Walls resist heat flow and R-value measures resistance to heat flow; U-value measures heat flow and windows pass heat."

Energy Star qualified windows must have a U-value of 0.35 or less in the Northern Climate (mostly heating) environment. A U-value of 0.35 is an R-vale of 1/0.35 = 2.9. 2.9!! Put into plain English, those windows are like big holes in the walls. And today's replacements do not do much to improve these holes.

But there is progress. There are triple paned windows. Some glass manufacturers are developing R-11 glass. Coating manufacturers are improving their products, too. There is one window company called Serious Windows that advertises high efficient vinyl replacement windows. It appears to be a good product but I don't know anyone who could afford them.

So now for the bottom line: replace your windows? Yes, but for the convenience; maybe you no longer want separate storms and screens. Yes, because they are rotted, inoperable or have failed seals. Yes, because you have single pane windows. These are all good reasons for window replacement. But replace your windows to save up to 50% on your heating and cooling bills? From where I’m sitting, that’s a siren song of disappointment.

Does anyone disagree? Let me know what you think in the comments below.

Submitted by Gordon Glidden on Mon, 01/18/2010 - 6:50pm
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Comments

Replacement windows

Submitted by HomeSealed (not verified) on Tue, 03/01/2011 - 3:27pm.

While I strongly agree with Gordon's assessment of the window replacement  "energy savings guarantees" being highly dubious, the thermal properties of the glass are just part of the equation. When looking at the broader picture of total home performance, air leakage becomes paramount. This is one area where new, high quality replacement windows far surpass the old combo units. Manufacturers such as Gorell and others make excellent vinyl windows that are air tight and offer highly efficient glass packages as well. I would suggest checking out other forums and blogs such as those mentioned above to do further research. There is definitely a vast difference in quality between high and low end window offerings, in addition to the fact that window replacement really should be prioritized properly in the grand scheme of home performance.

Gorell windows

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 01/13/2011 - 11:30am.

As far as windows go - there is the good, better, and best out there. Of course people are going to purchase what they can afford, also some people do not think about quality and paying more now to save more money in the long run over time. If you are looking at getting new windows for your home, replacements or for a new construction, simply get a company that deals with Gorell windows to show you a demonstration. We had US Home Exteriors to come out and show us the difference between 6 brands and compared all to the Gorell windows. The Gorell windows are just amazing and look very good in appearence as well. The guy took a heat lamp of 250 watts, put it against the glass of all brands and it was just as hot through all of the glasses except for the Gorell windows, we could not feel any heat at all! I am in construction work for a living but never new that Gorell was this good. The security of Gorell windows are very impressive also. I am sold on Gorell windows, call them and see for your self - instead of reading forums and taking my word for it!

Yes, you can to be careful

Submitted by Natural Gas Company (not verified) on Tue, 12/28/2010 - 7:21pm.

Yes, you can to be careful with what your buying. Just like with everything else.

 I also beg to differ with

Submitted by phil (not verified) on Fri, 12/10/2010 - 11:55pm.

 I also beg to differ with the home inspector. Glass technology may not have changed much in 2000 years...but window manufacturers keep turning out better products. A quality replacement window is not only the glass, but what is called an IGU. (integrated glass unit.) The frame, seals, insulating gas, vinyl, (no crack, chip, pop, or fade), is just as important as the glass. This is why you should ALWAYS demand a LABOR and material warranty. If a super insulated window is broken, you can't simply call a plate glass compnay to come and make you another piece of glass to fit in your frame. They do not have that expertise!

As for a "50% guaranteed" utility bill drop due to new windows..that is marketing, pure and simple. I could make a guarantee of 60%! Sound good? Read the fine print. "50% guaranteed, first year, up to maximum of $500.00. I simply could charge you an extra $100 for each window, and put that in a savings account..and make money. ...Maybe 3% payout? Common sense folks. That being said, NO ONE can guarantee your savings with certainty. (too many variables.) I can however, report that my AVERAGE homeowner saves approx. 35% on heating/cooling savings...(documented.)

 I CAN guarantee that you can sit down with your morning coffee beside your new bay window in the winter...and not feel as though your feet are freezing. (cold air falls!) I can guarantee that my windows will not swell and be hard to open. I can guarantee that vinyl windows will NEVER need painting. I can guarantee that your carpets, drapes, flooring, photographs, and furniture will NOT FADE due to UV rays coming through a typical glass window. (once fading occurs,it's too late.) I can guarantee that my window frame will never ROT, preventing rotted window sills, contributing to mold and mildew growth, and allowing drafts and heat loss to occur, further increasing your energy bills! We also know that utility rates go one direction..up..and will continue to do so. 

Still want to keep your 20 year old wood or aluminum frame windows?  Still driving that YUGO?..I didn't think so.

 I have sold replacement

Submitted by phil (not verified) on Fri, 12/10/2010 - 11:15pm.

 I have sold replacement residential windows for years...and can adequately demonstrate how a super energy efficent can not only save money but make the home much more comfortable!

Keep in mind that a new home builder uses "builder grade" materials (the lowest grade products at the lowest price), for most homes...unless the homeowner specifies better. This includes carpets, countertops, decking, roofing..and yes...windows. A typical double-pane builder window is two panes of glass separated by as little as a 1/8th inch spacer, using dead air as an insulator...and fastened together with glue and screws. Compare this to a triple pane, super insulated window with three panes of glass, computer heat welded, 1 inch between glass spacing, filled with Krypton Gas, ( larger molecular structure than outside air), an R-5..(or better), rating, and with a lifetime warranty...fully transferable to the next homeowner! A quality window will not sweat, (condensate), will not transfer heat/cold through the frame, and best of all....will pay for itself over a short period of time. Easy choice.

 Yes. Good windows cost more initially than builder grade. Why do you have a choice of automobiles? The least expensive car in The U.S. in 1986..was a Yugo. How many of those have you seen lately?..and why? In 1986 you could have purchased a Volvo for more money. How many older volvos do you see on the road?

A favorite Yugo joke is:

"Why does a Yugo have a defroster on the rear window?

To keep your hands warm while you push it."

Have you heard of thermal

Submitted by Kath Vent (not verified) on Wed, 11/24/2010 - 3:54am.

Have you heard of thermal inserts or even chambered window frames? They are the top of the range composite window systems in the UK today and are A-rated for energy efficiency.

Regards,

Kath Vent

Soffits and Fascias

So many homes in So Cal are

Submitted by Tim (not verified) on Wed, 10/06/2010 - 10:59pm.
So many homes in So Cal are new and many already use the double pained windows to help with the cooling costs and they keep out noise well.  Los Angeles home inspectors don't usually comment on this in their inspections.   http://losangeleshome-inspection.com

Great post

Submitted by Gordon Glidden on Mon, 09/27/2010 - 1:03pm.
Thanks Scott, I appreciate your feedback.

Great post....

Submitted by scott s (not verified) on Thu, 09/23/2010 - 1:40am.
Great post! I just want to say you thanks for this informative information. Patio umbrellas

Windows

Submitted by Gordon Glidden on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 8:16pm.
Hi Robert. I feel bad for you having windows that you don't like. It sounds like poor performance. US Inspect is not connected to, affiliated with, or works for Thermal Industries in Staten Island, NY. Window lifetime warranties are very rare. I hope they honor their warranty. Telling them that you are thinking about calling the BBB should get their attention. Good luck.

Problem with windows

Submitted by Robert E McFeeley (not verified) on Thu, 09/02/2010 - 2:32pm.
  We purchased replacement windows with a lifetime warranty from a contractor (Affordable Home Improvement) in Staten Island NY. He represented himself as a sale person of Thermal Industries in Staten Island. He installed window in my 2 family home at a cost of $13,000. The only reason why I purchased from him was because he stated he represented your company. We have had nothing but problems with the window since he had the contractors installing them. The problem we have is, the guides come out of their (V shape holding in the side guides) and we are unable to open or close the window.  From what I can tell is the V shape latch (in each side of the window frame) that holds window frame) comes out and then I have to struggle to get it back into the guide.  This has happen numerous times since we purchased your product but beside it being annoying that we have to fight with the contractor to get it fix. Now he no longer returns our calls. It appears to me that it is the quality of the window that seems to be the main reason it keeps happening it shaoud have a better latching system.  Since I purchased your product with a lifetime warrantee I believe it should be honored. Can you assign another contractor or have a Thermal Industries repair person to come and fix this problem.  If you have other suggestions please advice I don’t want to besmirch your good name on the many websites that carry your product and have a comment section, nor do I want to send a formal complaint to the Consumer Affairs Bureau or Better Business bureau to press it further, but I don't know how to get someone to correct it permanently.  Sincerely, Robert E. McFeeley  

You need to do more

Submitted by Gordon Glidden on Tue, 03/30/2010 - 8:39am.
Here in Southeast MI I see vinyl windows every day. Not once have I seen them warp due to extreme cold temperatures. Maybe it happens where you live, but not here. Of course vinyl is cheap, that's why everyone is using it. It is old technology, so are water heaters. Problem is, my research shows that even the new technology today does not increase efficiency at a reasonable price. I had Renewal by Andersen replacement windows installed in my house 8 years ago. Wonderful windows, I recommend them highly. Their composite material is groundbreaking. But guess what? They still are only an R-4. Thought you might want to know

You need to do more

Submitted by Dave (not verified) on Mon, 03/29/2010 - 7:57pm.
You need to do more research.If you know anything about Vinyl,then you know that in extreme temperatures it warps and bows,even with metal inserts.Poor product,and that's why it's cheap,cheap window cheap quality.Actually Andersen invented it in 1959,but don't use it.Old technology.And if you also research you will find that Andersen with their composite has one of the state of the art products on the market,never rots,never needs maintenance and is super strong.All other technologies out there are dated.Thought you might want to know.

vinyl windows

Submitted by Gordon Glidden on Fri, 03/26/2010 - 8:34pm.
Thanks for your questions Chris. With regards to the double pane vs triple pane windows, all of the glass types, coatings and which side of the glass confuse me. There are too many other uncontrollable variables like latitude, shading and installation that compromise these factors. Look at the NFRC sticker for each window. The NFRC sticker contains four different numbers: U-value, Solar Heat Gain Coefficient, Visible Transmittance, and Air Leakage. You are concerned with U-value and Visible Transmittance. Ideally, you want a lower U-vale and a higher Visible Transmittance value. You quoted a .23 U-value vs a .29 U-value. That is a 26% improvement! Is it worth nearly double the price? Wallside Windows is a 66 year old window company based in Taylor, MI. Their vinyl double pane windows carry a five year accidental breakage warranty (I tell my customers you can throw a baseball through them and they will be replaced if they are less than five years old). The insulated glass seals are warranted for 35 years. The double hung windows tilt in for easy cleaning and have full size screens. These standards are comparable with the best window companies around. I see them in many homes, and they are touted on the property literature. Homeowners tell me that they honor their warranties. Andersen Windows is a 107 year old company in Bayport, MN. The Andersen sliding windowalls were state of the art when they were introduced sometime in the late 50s. They are rickety today, the wood has dried out and shrunk. The metal moving parts have taken their toll on the wood and themselves. These windowalls have reached the end of their useful life. Replacement should be full and complete. I have not researched this, but they may be valuable to someone. Good luck, and keep the questions coming.

vinyl Windows

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Thu, 03/25/2010 - 9:51pm.
Greets again, Thank you for taking time on these questions.  I have looked at tripple pane and now double pane windows and am still a bit confused. Wallside claims that tripple pane is a waste as double pane does the trick.  They are using Guardian glass and claim to get the U.29 by low e coating on both sides of both panes. The tripple pane coats the inside of the two exterior panes with an U .23 and R 7. Do the tripple pane make the house darker? Is the difference between U .23 and .29 significant enough to make a big difference? Cost are significant double pane Wallside $4,880 and Preservation tripple pane $9,200. Wallside does alot of Michigan work, what is your take on them?  They use Guardian glass. I am replacing some 1960 Andersonwall windows with the non-wood piece with the groove in it for the window to slide open.  Any thoughts on replacing this type of window? Thanks for your time in answer. chris

vinyl replacement windows

Submitted by Gordon Glidden on Wed, 03/10/2010 - 2:07pm.
There is a national manufacturers organization called The National Fenestration Rating Council. Fenestration is derived from fenestra which is Latin for window. There, participating window manufacturers submit their products for certification and ratings. Universal Windows Direct and All Weather Windows are there, but I did not see SIR Home Improvement Windows there. There are other resources: 1st Replacement Window, Replacement Windows, Replacement Window,  & Vinyl Replacement Windows. If you are a member of Consumers Union and receive Consumer Reports, they have window ratings. I'm sure that there are others that I have not come across. I believe the above links will be useful to you.

vinyl replacement windows

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Tue, 03/09/2010 - 8:10pm.
Greetings, I am following up to an earlier comment.  Thanks very much for your response.  I am trying to compare window companies and wonder if you have any source for doing this. I am looking at Universal Windows Direct - UniShield/Polaris Premium R-9, 3 pane argon filled and All Weather Seal Preservation Energy Maxx R-7, tripple pane argon filled and the SIR Home Improvement windows mentioned in the earlier post. I appreciate any guidance you may provide. Thanks

Replacement windows

Submitted by Gordon Glidden on Mon, 02/15/2010 - 5:09pm.
I believe that with that R-value you are getting triple pane windows. Just a guess. I have no knowledge of SIR Home Improvements. They are a member of the Better Business Bureau so I would go to their website and check it out. I also suggest that you contact the MI Department of Energy, Labor, & Economic Growth (DELEG). The DELEG is the state department that licenses workers and companies, and handles complaints. Thermal Industries has been around for almost 50 years, and they were purchased by Atrium very recently. Atrium did between $500M & $1B in sales last year, so they are huge. I would say that Thermal Industries windows appear to be decent windows based on the company age and size. One does not stay in business that long with an inferior product. As far as your Andersen windows go, if I understand you correctly, you got water between the panes of glass when you washed them. This indicates a failed seal, and it will hurt its insulating qualities. Contact Andersen or the installer because it may be covered under their warranty. My Renewal by Andersen windows have a 35 year failed seal warranty (material only). There are companies that say they can fix failed seals. I have no experience with any of those companies. I have heard of one called DeFogit. Check them out.

Replacement windows

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Mon, 02/15/2010 - 2:48pm.
I am in mid Michigan and have received quote from SIR Home Improvement on replacement windows..sellebrity Peak performance with U .18 and R 5.5.  Looking at a number of sliders for picture window and to replace Andersons on back of house.  Any history with SIR Home Improvement? Any opinion on the Sellebrity windows made by Thermal Industries part of Atrium? The Andersons have no drafts; however, when I washed them water got between the outside and inside panels.  Is this something to worry about or is there a seal that can replaced? Thanks very much!

energy audit

Submitted by Gordon Glidden on Sun, 02/14/2010 - 12:00am.
A home energy audit is a comprehensive review of the house's thermal barrier and appliances by a qualified energy auditor. It should include blower door testing and combustion analysis. An infrared (IR) camera is useful, but not completely necessary. An experienced auditor can observe air leaks without the IR camera. There should be a report with photos that provides existing condition observations, recommendations for improvements, and payback schedules for those improvements. There are two recognized energy audit certification organizations: Building Performance Institute (BPI) and Residential Energy Services Network (RESNET). In SE MI a BPI energy audit should cost $350-$500 and a RESNET audit should cost $600-$800.   If DTE Energy or Consumers Energy provides your utilities, you can go to their websites, click on the box that talks about energy savings, and follow the directions. You can do a simple on line audit by answering some house habit questions. You can see up to 24 previous months' bills. You can take advantage of rebates that they offer for residential energy efficiency upgrades. Some upgrades you can do yourself like hot water pipe insulation, low flow showerheads, faucet aerators and compact fluorescent light bults. Other upgrades like insulation, heating and cooling, windows and siding are better left to the professionals.   This summer the federal government and the State of Michigan will roll out programs to finance residential energy efficiency upgrades. Check out HOME STAR and Michigan Saves for more information. Good luck!

energy audit

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 02/13/2010 - 3:07pm.
What should I be looking for in an energy audit?  What should it include?  What should it cost?  I am in mid-Michigan. What improvements can I do myself?  What do I need a professional to do?

center of glass

Submitted by Anonymous (not verified) on Sat, 02/13/2010 - 3:06pm.
Why do they measure R-value in the center of the glass?

New Windows in Alexandria VA

Submitted by Gordon Glidden on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 10:16pm.

And you should be. The Gorell 5100 Series replacement windows appear to be good windows, have a decent history and will serve you well for many years. They were professionally installed who cleaned up when they were done. You made a good decision. The double hung windows tilt in for cleaning and the sliding windows lift out for cleaning. These are all good qualities that I expect from vinyl replacment windows. In SE Michigan we have similar companies that produce comparable windows.

The Gorell website highlights, with a magnifying glass on the NFRC label, a U-value of 0.22. That is an R-value of 4.5. I believe that U-value is one of their triple pane windows. Do you have triple pane windows? The double pane double hung windows and sliding windows with clear glass have U ratings of .45 to .48. These are R-ratings of 2.0 to 2.1. Any claims of energy bill savings are incorrect unless your house had single pane windows.

Enjoy your new windows, but I anticipate that your energy costs will remain essentially unchanged.

New Windows in Alexandria VA

Submitted by New Windows (not verified) on Tue, 02/09/2010 - 1:57pm.
I just had Gorell 5100 Series windows installed in my northern VA home, I am very happy with the outcome.

The accompanied guarantee

Submitted by Gordon Glidden on Thu, 01/21/2010 - 6:55pm.
Spot on Jo! If the gas industry ever develops smart meters, then the window manufacturers will have to tweet a different tune.

The accompanied guarantee

Submitted by Jo McConnell (US Inspect WASE) (not verified) on Mon, 01/18/2010 - 6:04pm.
One more thing about the accompanying guarantee to save you at least 40% on your heating bill...... Say you heat your house and water with the same energy source (natural gas or electricity) they can easily disclaim how you missed the guarantee by the simple fact it is so difficult to actually seperate out the cost of heating the home vs. heating the water for those needs.
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